So here's my conversation with this guy so far. Thought you all would find it interesting.

Background: Bayside is my home church back home and the college group there has its own myspace group. This is where this guy posted and I have been responding to him.

Atheist: "Bayside is such a huge church in this area. As an atheist, it depresses me that religion can prosper so much, and grab so many minds, through ignorance and denial. Have you guys ever hosted a formal debate of atheism vs. theism? Have you guys ever done anything concrete to show that you have some sort of firm standpoint against those who believe in the exact opposite?

I doubt it. You just tell all your followers that you have all the answers - rather, that your 2,000-ish year old folklore has all the answers - yet you keep them completely unaware of the arguments opposed to your views. They have to remain unaware, because your fallacious Bible tells believers to be weary of the secular world's complicated, philosophical talk. It's all derived of Satan!! Don't think! Don't question! Just be afraid of evil, be overly cautious, and somehow believe that you're loved!!

I would love to stand in front of your congregation and enlighten even 1 individual. But of course, I wouldn't be able to leave the building without being mugged or something. So, uh, scratch that. Anyway, if anyone wants to hear why the Bible is false, shoot me a message."



Me: "You sound rather sure of yourself about this church without knowing much about it. In fact, Bayside HAS held debates in the past and DOES encourage Christians to ask questions and figure things out for themselves.

Maybe instead of restricting your own thoughts to stereotypes that most atheists attribute to the Christian church, you should ask yourself why so many people find Bayside and the Christian faith so attractive.

I'd recommend a couple books to start with:

The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel - Strobel is an investigative reporter in Chicago who set out to prove that Christianity is completely wrong, but ended up becoming a Christian himself.

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis - Lewis was an atheist, but later converted to Christianity. This book explains his reasoning.

Both are excellent and help demonstrate that there is, in fact, a legitimate intellectual side to Christianity."



Atheist: "I know. I was rattling the cage :P

I grew up in a Christian environment, and went to quite a few church-hosted debates. Mostly creation vs. evolution - and it's pretty convincing if you're kept unaware of the real standpoints that Atheists have. Mainly the problem of omniscience vs. free will - it kind of overwhelms the entire text of the Bible. In a nutshell, there's no free will, and above that, with omniscience kept as a factor, God's rationale behind His actions are quite childish. I can elaborate with respectful tact if you wish.

I don't blame you for assuming me ignorant. My original post was rather aggressive."



Me: "I took a philosophy course last spring. We discussed the whole free will vs omniscience issue and it is still very much in debate whether man does or does not have free will. Personally, I think both sides have excellent arguments and there probably isn't a way to prove which is right, so both are based off belief. I vote that it's probably somewhere in between, but that it is reconcilable to God's character."


Atheist: "Well I don't know how smart these kids were in your philosophy class, because the answer is pretty easy to understand.

The question: "Do we have free will under God?"

The answer: On a small scale, yes. All free will requires is that we are not being forced to do anything. Within our perception of our lives, that's the case. However, on a larger scale, under God's omniscience, NO. God knows what we're going to do before we do it - He knows it all before we're even born!! He has to, because He's God!!

Since God's omniscience would greatly outweigh our limited experiences, I'd say the ultimate answer to the question is "no". We don't have free will, because there's no possible way that we can deviate from God's "fore-memory". So if God fore-knows that I'm going to end up an Atheist for the rest of my days, there's nothing that could possibly change that. I was destined for Hell since before I was born.

How is any of this just or fair or good?"




Me: "The flaw in your logic is that you're still using the word choice. Just because God knows what we're going to do before we do it does not negate our choice in the matter. God doesn't make the choice for us simply because He knows what choice we will make. For example, if you have been around children a lot, it is very possible to know exactly how they are going to react to a situation. When we were younger, my little brother ALWAYS threw a fit whenever I took away whatever toy he was using to annoy me. I knew before hand exactly what was going to happen, but that did not bind my brother into his choice. He still chose to throw his fit. You could also apply this concept to knowing what a close friend is going to do in different situations. The analogy isn't perfect, but it's still helpful.

Personally, I think this is directly related to the issue of how God is outside time. I've been thinking a lot lately about this issue and it seems to me that God can be neither inside time nor outside time because both would restrict God according to time. If God is God, then He can't be bound by time at all and so can choose whether and when to work inside or outside of time. That's pretty hard to grapple with as a human whose entire existence is defined within time. But if God can work both inside and outside of time, then it is entirely possible, and indeed likely, that God both knows and does not know what our choices will be. If that's true, then your entire argument is defunct.

Just a thought."


The next part is his responses to individual sections of my argument.

Atheist: "Katie wrote:
"The flaw in your logic is that you're still using the word choice."

Actually, I didn't use that word at all in my last post, but I get your point LOL.

"Just because God knows what we're going to do before we do it does not negate our choice in the matter."


Yes it does, because you can't deviate from God's foreknowledge of your choices. If you could, then God would be wrong.

"God doesn't make the choice for us simply because He knows what choice we will make."

God knew, before creating Adam and Eve, EVERYTHING that would happen. Before creating us, he knew that we would fall into temptation with the presence of the serpent. God still created us. Sounds like he made the choice for us.

"For example, if you have been around children a lot, it is very possible to know exactly how they are going to react to a situation. When we were younger, my little brother ALWAYS threw a fit whenever I took away whatever toy he was using to annoy me. I knew before hand exactly what was going to happen, but that did not bind my brother into his choice. He still chose to throw his fit. You could also apply this concept to knowing what a close friend is going to do in different situations. The analogy isn't perfect, but it's still helpful."


Yes, your analogy is sufficient. Allow me to expand upon it. You tell your child, "if you burn your hand, any day, any time, I'm going to kill you." Now, it just so happens that you know, for a FACT, that on noon this day, your child is going to burn his hand accidentally. Not only this, but you don't WANT your child to burn his hand. You don't WANT to kill your child. And you KNOW that he's going to do it!! And yet you do nothing. You don't take any kind of direct action to prevent your child from doing it. So the child burns his hand, and you execute full force. Does that make sense to you? Because that what God does in your Bible.



"Personally, I think this is directly related to the issue of how God is outside time. I've been thinking a lot lately about this issue and it seems to me that God can be neither inside time nor outside time because both would restrict God according to time. If God is God, then He can't be bound by time at all and so can choose whether and when to work inside or outside of time. That's pretty hard to grapple with as a human whose entire existence is defined within time. But if God can work both inside and outside of time, then it is entirely possible, and indeed likely, that God both knows and does not know what our choices will be. If that's true, then your entire argument is defunct."


Not at all, because your God CAN'T "not know" ... anything. Why? Because of God doesn't know ALL, how can He make *perfect* choices? In fact, if God doesn't know ALL, 100%, then how is He ALL-powerful? And if He's not all-powerful, then how the blank is He God?!?! No, if you're going to try to prove that perhaps God doesn't know everything, you're actually digging yourself a hole. Sorry.

"Just a thought."


You're analytical. That's a good thing. Don't lose it, and keep thinking. It'll save you from a lifetime of wasted money and emotion."


Me: "First: Foreknowledge does not necessitate determinism. In fact, making the claim that God HAS foreknowledge is placing Him inside time. Think of it not as God knowing what you're going to do BEFORE you do it, more as that God knows what you're going to do WHEN you do it.

Second: I'm not arguing that God doesn't know everything. I'm arguing that God both does and doesn't know everything all at the same time. But even the way I phrased that last sentence isn't perfectly correct either because I'm human and can't get away from the idea of time, hence my use of the phrase "at the same time." The best I can describe it is that to God, everything is present. Our past, present and future are all simply present to God. Your argument inherently binds Him by time and so, since He is not bound by time, it cannot apply to Him. And because everything is in the present, nothing can be determined because everything is happening. In fact, determinism even loses its meaning. Inside of time, determinism makes sense, but outside of time, it can't even exist because determinism is inherently linked to and defined by time."


Atheist: "So take it outside of time. God sees all time from an outside perspective. There's no beginning and no end. It's just all there, right in front of Him. Visualize all time as a big . . . uh . . . blob . . . sitting in front of God. The "blob" thing is just for reference lol. God still knows that if He does "this" to one part of that blob, then "that" will happen in another part. He doesn't want the latter part of the blob to occur. Again, he knows that it'll occur, for a fact, if he does "this". He still does "this", then gets his pants all frizzled when "that" happens? Enough to punish the little ants living inside the blob? It sure seems like God is just disappointing himself and then taking it out on us.

If nothing can be "determined", and everything is just "happening", then how does God have any kind of control?"



The End. So far anyway. Questions, comments, concerns, critiques, thoughts, etc. are desired, though not required. :)